Middle Nation Indonesia Briefing | The Path of Unity

So once again to the listeners as well as the speakers for the Middle Nation briefing on Indonesia and the with the focus on ASEAN, but we are talking about Indonesia today. Indonesia's story, we know that it's a one that one of, you know, constant negotiation between, you know, unity and division since independence. And ASEAN is, I mean, it's basically the the the heart of ASEAN, essentially. Indonesia being with being the largest with the largest population in all of ASEAN and with its diversity and with the recent turmoil that it's going through. So it's brought to our attention that we should actually talk about Indonesia.

And we are going to just do a short brief overall summary on the history of Indonesia just to provide listeners with an understanding of Indonesia's trajectory to towards 2025 today from post colonial times. So I don't have to talk about colonialism. We already know the template, what brought the colonialists over to all of our regions. And, of course, the natural resources of Indonesia was the draw, and that's what drove the colonialists over here. So whatever drove the colonialists out, the birth of the country began with Excuse me.

So with Sukarno, now I would like to I will do a brief summary based on what events happened. I'm not going to comment on the correctness or the mistakes of what actually took place. So I will leave the rest for brother Hassan to talk about. So what I would talk about is what actually happened. Okay?

So, basically, Sukhanu takes over, and then he had a a vision of combining nationality nationalism with religion, being a Muslim in a Muslim majority country with religion. So by religion, meaning Islam, and communism. Because at the time, that was feature in a lot of postcolonial independence pursuits. You know? It was anti this anti imperialist, anti colonialist pursuit was also tied with the communist ethos.

So Sukarno felt that all of this had to be combined in his nation building project. So he felt he believed that this was an essential component of defining Indonesia's national identity because all of these pursuits were what he calls, you know, being in a in in the same ship. He calls it being in the same ship. So everyone these co ideology ideas or not it's not ideology, really. It these all of these points, the nationalism, religion, and communism, all had the same goal and had to work together in pursuing that one uniting goal of national unity.

So that was the basis of his nation building. And then from so this this is where I in in the agenda, if you look at it, he calls it NasaKom. NasaKom is basically an abbreviation in Bahasa Indonesia, nationalism, Agama, which is religion, and communist. I think the way it's pronounced in Indonesian is different, but it's basically an abbreviation of those terms. So and then I also highlighted in the meeting agenda some of the key personalities that were involved in the conflicts between ideas of nation building of So Sokarno's idea of nation build nation building, but I will not go into that right now.

And then, again, just to provide for listeners on a brief history and trajectory of Indonesia from postcolonialism to modernity. So after Sukarno, we will talk about I mean, in the in the sorry. In the agenda, I listed some of the ideas and social development that went into the social development of Indonesia. Because Indonesia is collection of many islands of different cultures and different ethnicities whose languages and heritage vary. So it's often misconception from for outsiders because they think that Indonesia is just this one uniform united body of culture, but it's not the case.

They all form different they have a variety of cultures and languages and and and how do I put this? It's truly a manifestation of unity and diversity. They're a very diverse community much to it surprises a lot of people to realize that. And even the fact even the development of the language, Indonesian, Bahasa Indonesia is also something that a lot of people are not aware of. So this would be it's not like in China.

You know? I mean, in China, they have also the the the language Mandarin that unifies the country, but they also have the same story. They have different ethnicities, different languages, and it the communist China actually imposed a national pursuit in making Mandarin the lingua franca of all Chinese people, but that's a topic for another time. But Indonesia also has a similar pursuit in in unifying the country through a common language. So that's something that brother Abu Bakr will elaborate on.

And then I will talk about we will talk about Suharto. This is post Sukarno. So there will be Suharto, and for anyone familiar with the brief, you know, cursory history will realize will will hear about the anti communist pursuit of Suharto. So we will talk about that briefly, and then we'll talk about the post Suharto era of leadership in Indonesia and then the return of the political dynasty of Indonesian politics with, Megawati Sukarnaputri, who's the daughter of Sukarno coming into power, and then, leaders after Sukarno sorry, Megawati Sukarnaputri and then up to Prabhu Prabhu's leadership today. So without further ado, I will just give brother Ihsan the the the time to speak about the points that he has raised about Indonesia and its history.

So brother Ihsan, please.

Okay. Thank you. Sorry. Maybe I will mostly speak in Indonesian. I'm not really fluent in English.

Feel free. I Yeah.

But I

will I will try it, Before we talk about NASA company, we should look further in the past. NASA company have the roots in the aftermath of Java war that I write on my points, I sent a group. We should start at 1830. That was the end of Java war. The Jaffa war, basically, is a a rebellion by a prince of Yogyakarta named prince Tibonokoro, once of Indonesian hero.

Why I say that we should took further in the past because in my view, the the Japanese people at that time was already a Muslim society. But the colonization makes us into what's Japanese in in in modern era. That is institute to learn about Java and the society. And the products of the institute was what we called, and Santri. Santri means someone who learned much about the religion.

And is common people and this and the Priyayi Priyayi is people from the from the Karachian. The tree through inspiration that after contact with organization that turned the tree groups into Nasako. Okay. The Sun Tree become the Akama, the the Priyay become the nationalist, then upper line become companies. Basically, that the the the road was there.

So it was an interaction of it's a reaction of the things that was imposed by the colonialists

I think so. I think so.

That came up with these three goals that developed into these three goals. Right? Nationalism and

Three groups. Yes.

Yes. It's from the from because of the Japanese war, it started off this type of mindset. Because the the the colonialists wanted to group the religious Yes. Yes. Muslims.

They wanted to identify the cultural Javanese.

Yes.

Correct? And then they they started to make these groups and divisions.

So Yes. Yes.

Yeah. So it the in the nation building, we needed to unite these three groups.

Yeah. In politics Because you are in problem. Yes. Not only political even. That's the spirit of in 1828.

Okay.

There Mhmm. She was the the arch architect of of the republic. So he has the Book Republic Indonesia before we hear something about that.

Okay.

So, basically, after that, the I said, these people become leaders. Long story short, 1942, the Japanese Mhmm. The Dutch. We are under under Japanese occupation. Indonesia that is that will default into our TNI right now.

Yeah. And after 1945, that was period of war. That was said that it's, you know, all this operation or something like that. Well, it is a war between two. And, yeah, during that time, we are not only fighting the Dutch, but we we are too we were fighting each other between us Mhmm.

Nationalist versus some Islamist. There are

The communist also?

Yes. The communist.

Yeah.

Okay. So, actually, we we lose the war. Mhmm. But but the international.

Hours?

Yes. Yes.

Yes. Yes. Yes. So, yeah, this is the thing, Kalo. Like, because if you want to talk about nation building, Kwaza is important.

So the one who that's why he had to undermine that that's why he had to control any opposition. So Hamka was arrested. I mean, Tamalaka already passed away by that time.

Yes. Yes.

Tamalaka is yeah. He already passed away. So, yeah, he was the radical the radicalist in the PKI. And so in in order to you know, he want to hold on to his power. He had to do what he had to do la Sucarno and then to try to build the country.

So we we will not go more into those details. This is just to give some idea for Indonesians sorry, people from outside of Indonesia to have an idea about the starting of the beginning of independent Indonesia.

If if I understand, the the formation of Sukarno's political philosophy of joining these three elements within the society was inspired by the sort of the reality and the mythology around the Java war Javanese war because you had the three elements all uniting in that war, meaning meaning sort of the the nationalist being sort of represented kind of by the elites, the religious element, and then the communists representing sort of the peasantry. And they were all united in the war. And so he he sort of metamorphosized this into a political political categories of nationalists representing sort of the the the secular educated elites who also wanted to free Indonesia, the religious bodies that wanted to free Indonesia, and the peasantry that wanted to free Indonesia. And he gave them the political categories of nationalist, religious, and communist. Am I understanding correctly?

I think what the brother was saying that the the the Java war was as you pointed out, it was the convergence of all these three elements, but Right. The divisions were creation of the colonialists because they wanted to group the Muslims for their religious religiosity. Does it I think this is irregard regardless of class. They just wanted to group Muslims who are religious and, of course, the secularists who are the cultural Javanese. They are not identified or group categorized as elitist per se, but the cultural.

Adat, they call it. You know? So the the this is the and they try to very heavily promote the Adat of Indonesia in order to sow a religiosity and division. So this was a categorization that they made they created. And then they, of course, identified the the the the communist, which also was found in different classes.

And then this was a categorization by the the Dutch and because it like like, it just points out in the message is kind of a divide and conquer attempt. So it was just a categorization and grouping created by the Dutch in order to constantly divide make these divisions, you know, point out these divisions. And then this evolved later on because Suharto sorry. Sukarno saw that, okay. This is Indonesia.

This is our home. This is where we are. All of us are not going to leave Indonesia. So since this is our home, we have to form our national identity, our national story. So he came up with Nasaqom.

This is the way I look at it. But brother Ihsan wants to provide a background on the cause for this division. Why is there a national nationalistic identity, and why is there communist and Muslim, know, identity among the Indonesians? So, again, the origin is divide and conquer. And and, of course, the I think the tactic would be to malign the Muslims.

Oh, you're not culture you're you're you're abandoning your adat, so we need to emphasize the adat, which is which which is another angle that brother Hassan is trying to go at with with the panchasila and the the I can't pronounce the actual word, the one that brought the the theory, the unifying motto of uniting all of Indonesians despite their differences, the cultural diversity. Because, yeah, like you said, Javanese are all Muslims, but the the then but after the war, there are non Muslim Javanese. Okay. So this is brother Hassan is talking about that. So the the unity in diversity, that that motto is derived from promoting culture.

All of the different cultures, and all of the different cultures don't necessarily have a tie up to Islam. So this was an this is pre independence. This was the Dutch attempt to, again, sow division and malign the Muslims for not, you know, clinging on to their Jahiliya culture, for example. You know? So during the Japanese war, young Tiga Galumbagni, they united.

Right? The To fight the

were just an exit at the at the time. Okay. There there is no Priyayid. There is no Abangand. There is no Santhri.

We were all Islam. We were all Santhri. We were all Santhri.

The ones the the ones that that fought the Dutch were only the sentries. Oh. What are the Muslims?

We're all sentry. We're all Muslims at the time. And Okay. Yeah. You know, the the aftermath of the war, the Dutch is fear of Islam.

Yeah.

So he need so the Dutch needed to create the the division?

The division. Yes.

Yes. So what he's saying is that the war the Japanese war was represented by the Santris who are the Muslims. So it was a unified confrontation identified as Muslims confronting the Dutch. But then the postwar, I think the Dutch needed to create that narrative of the nationalists, of the the the communist, and the Muslims. I think the Dutch tried to group this this the the the Javanese into these three groups.

Dutch. Is that what you're saying, brother Esan?

Yes. Yes. According to MCU records

Okay.

In in his book.

Okay. So this is this is this is an we we can take it as an interpretation of events. So this is why my intention is to go into talking about post when the colonialist left and the the birth of Indonesia. Whatever the backstory is, the reality is, Sukarno felt that this is Indonesia. In Indonesia, we have these two these three people, these three groups of ideology.

We need to unite them under one ship because we are in the ship. We cannot fight each other. Because if we fight each other, then the ship will sink. None of us will survive. So we if we want to survive, we have to unite, and we have to build towards a future of for Indonesia.

So this was his vision. But then his vision for unity was not always met with positivity by the groups, particularly the communist. They were always trying to undermine, and it was shown in the confrontingency with Malaysia. And in the region also, the the communist were constantly undermining the nation building because of their own ideologies, of their own interests, and, of course, the the outside intervention and outside in interference also. So in order to achieve stability and the goal of, again, nation building, Suharto went after the communist.

So we enter into the era of Suharto, and Suharto's era is, I think let me see the year. I can't remember the time of the should be around 1965 onwards, the anticommunist era of Suharto. And, of course, the thirty September event that happened that went after the communists. So he was really climbing down on the communists because they were really undermining the development and security of Indonesia. So once he established that, post Suharto leadership started to develop.

So what is the post Suharto leadership? The post Suharto leadership, Suharto fell in 1998. 1998 is the time when the Asian crisis was happening. So also time of turmoil in the region. Also, not to mention I mean, of course, this is because of the I mean, all all of the IMF issue the IMF imposed problems in the region, and then the World Bank imposed problems in the region.

We also we we we are aware of how, for example, Malaysia's Mahathir dealt with it. Thailand, it started off in Thailand, and then the repercussions were all felt all over. So Suharto after Suharto fell, it was Bijay Habibi for a short while, two years only. And after Bijay Habibi, it was Gustor after Ahmad Wahid. Abdur Rahman Wahid, to my mind, he is a huge individual in Indonesian politics, but also he his leadership was very short, only two years.

And then after Abdur Rahman Wahid came Megawati Sukarno Putri, who is the daughter of Sukarno. And she was a kind of a representation of a kind of a political legacy, I guess. You know? So she was there for a while and for, I think, ten years. And then we had Susilo Bambang.

Susilo Bambang, SBY, he was more onto providing stability and modernization of Indonesia. And, of course, I think from Susilo Bambang's leadership, I know that the acknowledging the Muslims' needs and the cultural the the identity of Muslims was crucial. And and it continued, and it still continues to do so in in acknowledging and validating the identity of Muslims. I don't think this has been undermined throughout the continued leadership in Indonesia. Is it correct to say so to say so, brother Esan?

Would you say that the Indonesian leadership I think you're muted, brother. You you can unmute unmute yourself.

Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. There's problem with Mimos.

It's okay. It's okay.

So after Basically, yes. That's

Yeah. And then there's joke with Odo. And now we have Provost Buanto. Now Prabhos Buyanto is he is not just a nobody. I think we also need to just emphasize.

I'm sure people who are familiar with Indonesia know about this, but Sobiyanto didn't just come into leadership, like, last year. I mean, he was the minister for defense during Jobo's term, and he is he was also a general during the time of Suharto. I think he was he he was also his son-in-law. Right? His wife is the daughter of Suharto Kalota Salabatol.

Yeah. Okay. So now there can we now maybe I would give this microphone to brother Abu Bakr to talk about the unifying factor that make Bahasa Indonesia the language of the Indonesians. Because it is not it's a it's a invented new language, actually. It's not the unifying it has never been a uniform language for all Indonesians.

So maybe, brother, if you're ready.

Yes. Assalamu alaikum, everyone. First of all, thank you for the opportunities to speak. As a Malaysian, I can't I really cannot and probably should not comment very much on Indonesian because mainly, I'm an outsider, and the other thing is that I I don't really have, you know, a lot of information about, history and stuff like that. So, I'll be participating mainly as a listener, but I can maybe perhaps, inshallah, contribute a little bit on the discussion point concerning the birth of Bassa Indonesia as it relates as it relates to all speakers of Bassa Maya and which also happens to be my language my national language in Malaysia.

So there there's often some level of confusion even among, you know, people outside of Indonesia, like, in in Malaysia, within the region about Bassa Indonesia and how it relates to Bassa Malayu. And there's actually a lot of nuance when it comes to how these two languages are related. So, personally, I would say that the most the closest description of what the relationship is like is probably like a child to a parent. Like, Basil Indonesia is like a child of the offspring of the Basa. And like all offspring, it grows up and it has its own experiences and becomes its own thing.

So, anyway, to answer the, like, the the first question, what is Basa Indonesia? Basa Indonesia is a is a language that is mainly borrowed and adapted from Basa Mlaiyuk, which is the official language spoken officially by the the Malay peoples of South Southeast Asia, including even, even the sub ethnic groups in, throughout the region, like, in, Malaysia, Brunei, Singapore, and Sumatra. And, each even even within the Malay Malay peoples of the region, there there are sub ethnic groups and the, like oh, what do you call it? The dialects of Malay such as the Minang language, Minang Kabal language. Then there's also some, you know, some other forms of Malay, like the creolized Malayu, Basil Malayu, Batawi, for instance, the Batawi Malay language, which, has borrowed a lot of terms, like, from other languages like Javanese, Sudanese, Chinese, and and Dutch.

So when when Indonesia became independent, there was a there was this very, very dire need to unify, the different ethnic groups throughout the country. And this is mainly due to the fact that, you know, the Republic Of Indonesia is, like, the the fourteenth largest country in the world by area, and it's made up of about 17,000 individual islands and and hundreds of ethnic and linguistic groups. So in order to diversify, in in order to unify such a diverse mix of cultures and ethnicities, it was necessary to use an official language that was capable of doing so. Now Bassem Laiyu was the perfect choice because for centuries long, like, hundreds of years, it had been a lingua franca, not only in Southeast Asia, but also throughout the world. You would find traders all the way from, the West, like, in in, the Venetians and whatnot, and the Portuguese and what and all those people.

They would have to learn Malay in order to trade internationally. So that was that was actually a very big factor in what why, Basil Indonesia was adapted from the Malay language. But in order to be a unifying language, it had to be stripped of its original ethnic identity. So instead of calling it Basil Mayu, they they they changed the name to Basil Indonesia, and they incorporated a lot of vocabularies from different ethnic groups, especially the big the big ethnic groups like the Javanese and the Sundanese, for instance. So they this new language was called Basa Indonesia, and and, and so it was born this new language was born and incorporated into new into, the culture of the the country of Indonesia.

So, one of the things that that, you know, you can really highlight about the choice of Indonesia as the unifying language is that even after, like, decades of independence, Basa Indonesia has has grown in usage and, you know, has not only successfully unified the different ethnic groups within Indonesia, but it has also even far suppressed, surpassed its parent language, Basum Lao, in terms of the number of speakers. And it's actually today the, the tenth most spoken language in the world. So, yeah, that that basically is, that basically covers why about Basi Indonesia and why it, was chosen as an official language in Indonesia, and, then how and how it relates to the rest of the region. So I'll I'll pass back to sister Salma now.

Okay, Jessica. Go ahead, brother, Abu Bakar. Yeah. This is, this is something, again, I think necessary to feature because in in our I mean, sorry, the briefing, because I think a lot of people are not familiar with, again, the diversity of this region. The assumption is everybody is just one unified monolithic body, you know, and it's anything but there's a lot of diversity, a lot of differences, and they're all people from this region.

But with these differences, they are unified with with a language. And it's interesting that you would bring up the fact that, yes, again, so easy to overlook, but this was the lingua franca of the region, and everyone spoke Bassanayu. I mean, there was a time in Singapore where I'm from, everybody spoke Bassanayu. You know? Everybody spoke Bassanayu regardless of race because that's the only way to communicate effectively with other people, you know, when you're doing trade and when you're doing diplomacy, anything.

You know? And, of course, they're trying to revive that, and I hope it is rekindled and and becomes norm again because there's a slur. Like, if you're a Malay who doesn't speak sing you're a Malay who doesn't speak Malay, you're a Singaporean. So that's something that's not to be proud of for Singaporean a lot of Singaporeans. But, anyway, I digress.

So that that was, again, brief nugget of information for listeners who are not familiar with this region. Now we will go back to the reason why we have gathered to meet today to talk about the recent protest. And I believe from what I have gathered from the news, especially on Friday on the day of the Maulid, I don't see any escalating protests or events that has taken place. Is that correct, or am I missing something on the news, brother Ihsan?

Yes. That's correct. No no protest at all.

Yeah. That's good. Okay. So there means nothing. Right?

Because I I kept searching the Internet for news about anything that's developing. Seems like everything is quiet. Right?

Yes. Yes. That's right.

Okay. Inshallah, I I'll just I think there's somebody entering. Okay. Is Shahid there? Do you want to add anything to the discussion so far?

Well, I wanna I I sort of want to kind of go back. I I don't wanna belabor the point, but I think that it's it's it's important to to have an accurate and and not an ideologicalized version of history. And I think that the the the what you can call, I guess, the sociological groups certainly did exist in Indonesia before the Javanese war. The different tiers in the society, the different there certainly were non Muslims in Indonesia at that time. There were people who were obviously Hindus.

There were people who were different religions. There were people who were different varying degrees of religiosity. And I think that what the Dutch did was to use the existing differences within the society to exaggerate those differences and use the divide and conquer strategy, but they didn't invent these categories. That wouldn't even work. They they exaggerated and they elevated, for example, anyone who was less religious to administrative positions and so forth, and they gave them preference and so on.

So it's not a thing where the Dutch invented divisions in the society. They exaggerated and they manipulated and they exploited existing divisions in the society. And then I think that what Sukarno eventually did was, as I said earlier, gave specific political categories to those existing sociological categories in the society under the Nasakam philosophy, saying that this is a this is a sociological and a political reality that we have in Indonesia, that we have these at least three main categories of types of people. And we all need to understand that we are one people and that none of these categories should be allowed to be exploited and manipulated to divide us against ourselves. And subhanAllah, the the the introduction of Bahasa Indonesia as the lingua franca of the entirety of the population is absolutely brilliant.

And as far as I know, unprecedented development. It's really an amazing thing that he did or that that that that Indonesia did. But I think that that we we we have to be honest about the reality that that certain divisions already existed in the society and were manipulated and exploited and exaggerated. And then tried to bring cohesion through his political philosophy and Allahuan.

And I think what brother Ihsan was trying to convey also, the the development of these groups, the intention was to undermine their connection to and association with the ulama. So if you had a kind of a social justice leaning and if you're Muslim, there were attempts at remove at at distancing themselves Absolutely. Because the the lure of the idea the the ideals just pulled them away from the ulama and brought towards their ideology. It was a kind of schism and distance.

And then

Yes. Okay. There's there's certainly nothing that that that the Dutch or any any colonial power, any colonizing power, there's nothing that they ever feared more than Islamic cohesion, Islamic mobilization, mass mobilization of of Muslims. There was nothing that any colonizing power ever feared more than that. So they they certainly did everything that they could to undermine that for sure.

Okay. So, basically, like, as we suspected, it was much ado about nothing, the protests, the the the turmoil in Indonesia, which is, alhamdulillah, we are grateful that we have nothing to report, which is a good thing. But maybe we will just do a brief, like, what happened. So at first, what happened was Prabhu, president Prabhu raised the salaries of parliamentarians, and that was that news of those raised salaries was met with objections and protests by public by the public. I believe there were students who who led the protests, and these protests were in pockets of the cities in Indonesia.

But then things escalated and exploded when the management of the protest involved an accident. I think I believe it's an accident. The the I wasn't I don't think it was intentional to kill a delivery dispatch rider. And he was killed as 21 year old delivery dispatch rider who was killed, and then this enraged the public and it escalated into a massive explosive protest. And then this was quickly addressed, And actions taken by Prabhuo and the country was quite swift.

And I think he first acquiesced to the to the demand. He met their requirement in not raising the salaries of those members of parliament. And then I forget what else. Let me try to recall.

Well, first first, I would say I would say it it wasn't much ado about nothing. It certainly wasn't nothing. I think that that that the grievances were real. I think that it it was maybe you could say more ado than was called for rather than much ado about nothing. The the grievances are real were real and are real because the the people continue to have other grievances, and you have a whole list of demands that they put forward that the protesters put forward.

I'm not sure who actually wrote that, what what organization or what committee or something of the protesters, maybe brother Hassan knows, who actually put together those that set of demands. I think that going through the set of demands, I think that some of them are perfectly reasonable. Some of them, I think, are are highly unrealistic, and almost all of them are unrealistic in terms of the time frame that they're putting because they were saying that we want these demands met within the first week, then these demands within six months, these demands within a year and so forth. And many of the things that they're calling for are are are quite reasonable. Some of them, as I say, are unrealistic even if you give them a year.

But I think that approach of how can I say this? There was obviously a suspicion. I don't wanna hijack the meeting, but but there was obviously a suspicion that there was out outside interference or, you know, external western CIA, National Endowment for Democracy interference in trying to provoke these protests. And then there was a counter theory that the government themselves were actually provoking so that they could give themselves a rationale for cracking down. I I don't buy that particular narrative.

I had said earlier that it didn't make really any sense to me that there would be external like, any any any reason for there to be an attempt to activate us, a so called color revolution in Indonesia. Because the the whole point of doing something like that is to put a government in power that will impose neoliberal IMF friendly reforms on the economy that will make the, you know, austerity measures and so forth, privatization, and so on and so on and so on. And the way the the economic situation is in Indonesia now and geopolitical situation is in Indonesia now, excuse me, Even if you did that, no one would benefit from those types of policies more than China would. America wouldn't benefit that much from from doing that. The the the other thing that we were talking about, you and I were talking about one time, excuse me, was that the color revolution format formula of the color revolution depends upon their already existing sort of pressure cooker in the society, that the grievances are there and the desire for basically chaos and overthrow of the government is widespread enough in the society that you can hijack a protest movement and escalate it to the point of toppling the government.

Those elements have to already be there, kind of like what I was just saying about with the Dutch. The divide and conquer strategy only works if divisions already exist. You it's it's very difficult to impose divisions upon a society that aren't already there to one degree or another. And so for the for the cuddle revolution formula to work, there already have to be conditions on the ground where where where resentment is already smoldering enough that you can spark that powder keg and get it to explode the way you want it to explode. And I was doubting that that level of resentment, that level of hostility existed in Indonesia to where you could actually provoke that kind of chaotic and really self destructive response.

And alhamdulillah, Indonesia, I think, has has proven that that that is the case for them, that they that they are inherently more reasonable than that. And that even if like like, I also sort of hypothesized that because I I can't see why the US would want to overthrow the government of Indonesia, I can't see what their objective would be, I can't see what they would realistically get out of it, The other the other possibility is that the fact of the matter is that the CIA, the NED, the National Endowment for Democracy and so forth, have been funding NGOs, have been funding organizations, have been infiltrating academia in Indonesia for decades. So you have already created a certain demographic of people who already have this mentality, who already have the mindset that the West would want them to have. So they might have just been acting on their own, on the impulses that have been implanted in them through their own indoctrination by means of decades of National Endowment for Democracy programming and so on. But, ultimately, they are a minority in Indonesia, and I think that the majority of people want to want stability in their society, and and they want legitimate grievances to be dealt with in an orderly, organized, disciplined manner through proper channels, inshallah.

And, hopefully, inshallah, this the protest movement will will recede, inshallah.

InshaAllah. I mean, this apart apart from the way Subiyato dealt with the protesters by meeting their demands and and and requirements, you know, for the reason why the protest was even, you know, brought about. So he met those demands. I think the the the other demands are an outcome of what escalated after the incidents of the police killing one of the one of the he wasn't a protester. He was just on his way to work, you know, the grab driver who was killed.

So it's not even, like, a police brutality per se like that. He was just on his way to work, and there was, you know, chaos on his way to deliver delivering food, and he Yeah. Died as a result of that. Yes. So, you know, so there's that too.

This is why I feel like it's it it the demands and and the complaints have become a little bit confused after that incident. You know? It it first, it escalated. It became overblown, and then it became all muddled up. You know?

This is the thing. This is the thing is that is that many times a protest move a protest movement doesn't know when to stop. And and when your demands have been met, when your initial demand, the the the initial cause for you to go out in the street and protest, When that demand has been met, you have a momentum going with your protest, and now you don't wanna give it up. Now you think you wanna go further, especially if you're being provoked from out from outside, from external forces. Then it's like, well, we've seen the government has has has ceded to our demands.

Now maybe we have an upper hand that we can keep pushing. So let's quickly come up with a a bullet point list of things that we want the government to do and an impossible timeline, by the way, for having those things met, having those demands met, and some of which are, you know, as as absurd as like, we want within the next, you know, x number of days a fair wage for everyone in Indonesia. Obviously, this is not a thing that can happen. But if you're serious, if the people who who put those those demands together, if those people are serious, then okay. Like I said, many of the demands I think are actually reasonable and would be beneficial for Indonesia to try to implement over the course of time if you go through the proper channels.

And I think that one of the things that I advocate through throughout all of the Muslim world and throughout the global South generally is to elevate preexisting traditional authority structures that used to run your society. Like, for example, the the religious organizations in Indonesia that can be mediators between the people and the government. They're the of the society. And if you elevate them into positions of mediation and positions of oversight and witnesses and custodians of the society and the demands of the people, then you might be able to seriously work upon achieving the demands that you have listed. And between between the the government and the ulama and the people, reaching an understanding of what is realistic and understanding that we are all working together to try to improve the society because we're showing that we're not taking an adversarial approach to one another.

Exactly. I think I think it's particularly meaningful also to highlight that Subianto met with 16 or so leaders of religious organizations also before addressing the protest. You know? So he had he sought their cooperation, and he sought their help and advice in how to manage the the the protest as well, you know, before things started to cool down. And there was actually talks about escalating or even reviving protests on the Maulet, which took place about two days ago on Friday.

And that was rather concerning for me to hear because, you know, it based off of some of the contributions in the chat in the region's chat, it appears to be, like, non Muslim Indonesian influencers who are either based abroad or maybe even within Indonesia who want to hijack a religious gathering for the platform it provides and the group that it gathers to amplify their voices. So it's kind of, you know, I I felt that it was to say I mean, it's malicious. You know? Because this

Well, it's very cynical.

Yeah. It's it's it's very cynical because I saw I also saw the week prior to that, I saw a video of of I think it was a Singaporean who was saying, you know, he's alarmed by what's going on in Indonesia, and he's not gonna travel to Indonesia at this time. And that was on a Friday Friday morning. And he was saying, you know, they're having the now so you can expect that when everyone pours out of the masjid after, they're all gonna go into the streets, and it's gonna get it's gonna escalate. And it didn't.

Mhmm.

And that's a very important sign of where the what the actual sentiment is of the people. And that that in and of itself is also an indication of external provocation that you're trying to start something. And I'll just repeat, though. I still don't understand what would be the motive for an external provocation except either you would we're talking about Westerners who are themselves so deeply propagandized that they don't know that there's a reason why color revolutions work and don't work and why they are used and why they are not used, and they just think that it's this is just what we do. If if there's any sort of agreements, if there's any sort of a protest movement, our reflex knee jerk response is to try to hijack that and topple the government because I because you're not gonna get anything out of it by toppling the government of Indonesia.

You'll get nothing out of it. And then the other thing I was thinking was just, is it possible that they're just trying to harass because Indonesia joined BRICS, and they're trying to just show that we can destabilize your society and and hinder your your your reforms and your progress and so on. But even that doesn't really make sense strategically. So, I mean, if we assume that the people who are making these types of decisions have a strategic mindset, then it doesn't make sense to me. So I'm left with just assuming that we're talking about an an an indigenous demographic of people who have themselves been indoctrinated and westernized, that they have taken upon themselves the same mentality and the same ideology of of of neoliberal, basically neocon western mindset that we should always try to topple a government that we think is is wrong and so on.

Very childish. And it shows that the fact that you can't get really mass Muslim participation in this shows you that you're not gonna get very far, and it shows you that this is not a truly indigenous sentiment in Indonesia. And then the fact that the government is responding the way they have, which is to, I think, to listen and to be responsive to the demands of the of the protesters. I think it's good. And then now now is when we'll really see how serious these protesters were because now there is a window for getting the demands that you listed because now you've given us a list of things that you want the government to do.

Now we'll see how well they are going to work on those achieving those demands through available channels. Mhmm. Whether they're going to actually work seriously for for getting these demands done or whether these were just complaints that they were making for the purpose of justifying further protest.

Exactly. Okay. We have a we have a contribution from someone in the comments from Muhtaram. An Islamic organization took initiative to meet with Brabow, and Brabow warmly welcomed the initiative. Since the beginning of his term, Brabow has been quite focused on reaching out to Muslims compo compared to the Jokowi era.