Middle Nation Book Discussion | Propaganda by Jacques Ellul: Chapter 1 (Part One)

Okay. So, welcome again. We think we are enough to start the the the conversation. So part one is about external characteristics of, propaganda, and it consists of, how many? Five different sections, which are the individual and the masses, total propaganda, continuity and duration of propaganda, organizational propaganda, and the autoproxy.

Right. So before I nice French. Well, I studied French, brother Karim, so thank you for that. Yeah. So before I let you know what I have to say in the topic, I do invite somebody, whoever really, to share their thoughts on part one and what they found to be the most interesting bits.

You can just unmute your microphone and go ahead, please.

I don't always wanna be the first one to say something, so I'm just, you know, waiting if someone wants

to speak. Are going to be the first one, actually. So, you know, that's your destiny. Go go ahead, Karim.

Like, I

try to I, like, kinda wanna break the

ice, but also don't wanna push it. So I'm just always sitting here waiting. So I don't know. Go ahead. I I think, like, it was really interesting.

Like, first of all, for me, the realization that probably everything is propaganda a certain degree. Right? Like, he uses it in kinda more wide sense than what most people do. Right? Like, as he said also about, like, the elections.

Right? This is the only time where we kinda think about propaganda, right, or we think about it in terms of the western propaganda. Right? But according to his definitions and, like, the scope and the way it functions, you feel as if the propaganda is like some living organism. You know?

And the like, that it's a part of the society essentially. You just have to somehow figure it out to be able to, you know, not be influenced that much by it or something like that. So gave me a different view on it. Right? So I felt that was pretty cool.

And as I said, like, that is this living thing. Right? It keeps on, you know, reeducating and keeps on functioning and keeps on, like, being there. Right? It's not something that comes and goes, but it has to be this continuous effort and, like, everything, every medium of exchange just has to be, like or, like, medium of communication has to be, you know, part of this whole apparatus or something.

So yeah.

So I I do have a question for you then. If it is something that permeates society and, you know, it doesn't happen only during elections, what are some examples of it?

Like, from my personal view? Or

Yeah. Like, from from your experience, for example.

Well, for me, for example, this like, for us, oh, I guess, it's most about the western type of propaganda. Right? Like, this neoliberal, neo, you know, democracy type of propaganda that's being pushed all around us. Right? So that's something that I feel is pertinent to our world.

And how he even mentioned, like, in the comedies. Right? Like, it used to be with proletariat, you know, workers being shown in even in a comedy that it's, like, about the working class, and you can see it now. Right? They have all these, you know, trans, whatever, bi, gender, neutral.

You know, they put it in everything. Right? It's not just, you know, in the news or just something, but it's in advertisements. It's in, you know, the TV shows, the music, the videos, the movies. Like, everything is part of this, you know, narrative.

Right? Free and liberal.

Yeah. That's a good one. That's a good one.

Can I go next?

You don't have to ask for for my so it's totally fine. Go go ahead, Salma.

Okay. I'll I'll just go by my outline outline and my and the notes that I've outlined. I couldn't help but read the introduction before he before the first chapter and just to understand where he's coming from. And so what I've gathered is that he he's he's writing from within the context of the technological society as as in, you know, the modern in the modern context where where we have mass media. So that's the that's that's where he's coming from.

And and then the the the law of efficiency of proper propaganda essentially is enabled by technology. And and then he claims that the the obstacles that he's found in his study of propaganda is that it's often regarded as evil and, you know, told stories and and, you know, this skepticism and and the dismissiveness of propaganda. And that's something that that we need to factor in when we read the book because it's just it just it just permeates society. It's an inevitability. It's almost like a like a, I don't know, a science of existing as a as a society, as a community.

You know? So I think I think when we are reading this, I I I think we have to bear this in mind. It's not something sinister or necessarily evil and that the the okay. And then going on to the, you know, the and then going on to the characteristics of propaganda, you know, it exists, like, in a in a in a kind of

a

sociological phenomenon. So it's like it's just it's almost organic. As long as you have a society, a a a a that is organized, this is inevitable part of, you know, living together as a community. And and then the other thing is that, you know, he he talks about human nature and the and the and and human condition. I was wondering, like, when you hear the phrase human nature and the human condition, what what what comes to mind?

Like, what what because if you if you understand human nature and if you understand human condition, then you can embark on your, you know, propaganda program. So but but but in reading this, what do you what what do we understand as human nature? Are we like, by that like, human nature meaning, you know, are we good by nature or are we just prone to evil by nature? I mean, that's what I hear. You know?

And then if you talk about the human condition, then what are we talking about here? You know, the the are we always in a state of helplessness, or are we in a state of, you know, happy happiness and joy and contentment? You know? I I don't know. You know?

Like, I when you when you address these two points about a society, how do you, you know, read propaganda? You know, when you when you when you go through the characteristic of propaganda, do you do you revert back to, oh, this is because the human nature is like that or because the human condition is such? You know? I I guess I'm answering my own question. Mhmm.

But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose so. I mean, like and then some of the points he raises, you know, like like, how how you know, he identifies individuals and the masses and how propaganda ceases, you know, when simple conversations, simple dialogues begin.

You know? And then and then you you you wonder, okay. So what is modern propaganda according to Iluv then? You know? And and what I've gathered is that, you know, it's supposed to spark action towards the propaganda's desired response.

Right? So you develop learned attitudes. And so he he ends the book with, you know, identifying those those charting out, you know, what's needed for this to pan out. And it seems like a very elaborate work of art. You know.

It's it's both a science and an art. And, you know, it's it's really interesting.

Absolutely. I I I do I do have a question for you, Sama. So Yeah. When when he speaks about and this is something I I also picked on, the the the human condition or the the human nature. No.

I I've read, you know, a chunk of Western literature, and they they do seem to be be affected by this Christian understanding. Like, even even if if they're not Christian of human nature being inherently evil and that we are born within sin or or with sin, However however you you you you want to call it. And I do believe, like, the author himself draws upon that sentiment that we tend to gravitate towards evil. Like, even if propaganda is not necessarily bad, that we use it for evil anyway because it is in our nature, really. Like, would you view it like that, or do you have a different take on it?

I I have a different take. First of all, I don't think we are inherently evil because because it it just starts from our our origin, you know, where where Shaytan, when he tried to convince to sin, to take off the partake of the fruit, You know, he what did he say? He said that I am but a sincere you know, I I I'm sincerely advising you because I believe, you know, in in goodness for you. You know? Like, you have to you like like, most of a lot of us who sin, we try to rationalize our our mistakes and and and and, you know, the the evil is made to appear good to us.

You know? And and I think human beings tend to obviously, we lie to ourselves because we we ultimately want to be good and want to do good. And so we delude ourselves into believing that we are doing the right thing when we are actually sinning. So I I really believe that, you know, internally, we all want to be good. We all are good, and we yeah. I I

don't I don't believe that. And so yeah. But when you when you talk about when you bring it up this way and then I mean, I I don't think Ilu himself considers propaganda as as evil per se. I think he's very scientific about it in his in his presentation. He's just very matter of fact.

I mean, maybe not scientific is not the right way to describe it. He's just matter of fact about it is what it is. You know? This is how it is. This is it's an it's it's just how things pan out.

But if you want to like, say, for example, in the example of of, you know, spectator sports, you know, where where you have to what did I write here? I'm sorry. You know, to be effective, propaganda must constantly short circuit all thought and decision. You know? This this drives the crowd to, you know, the stadiums to cheer on a a team that you don't know, you you know, people that you don't even personally know.

But it it drives the herds, right, into the into the stadiums. But is that, you know, is that an evil is that because we are evil and we are bad that we are like that? You know? Or is it because, you know, it's I I don't see it as sinister and evil. You know?

I just see it as I I how do I put this? Because I I'm not some someone into spectator sports. I am critical of it, but I'm I I wouldn't say it's evil. You understand what I mean?

Right. It it is just of how we act in this world, how we tend to act, basically. Right?

But I felt this is even his point. Like, I didn't feel he put it in some negative notion or, like, some negative slide that we are, like, evil or he's just, it is what it is. Right? Right.

Yeah. Right. I I I saw your your comment. Could you perhaps elaborate on that? Because I I think it is very pertinent to what we're talking about here.

Yeah. Exactly. Like, the it's just part of human nature or essentially this, like, forming opinions, right, being part of something. I mean, this higher purpose, for example, like, in the society. Right?

So when you belong to this part of this propaganda group, you don't feel left out. Right? You don't feel, like, outside of the narrative, outside of the mainstream. Like, you it gives you some part that you are accepted. Right?

Like, some feeling this is what the human nature I think he's trying to target. Like, he's talking about the human nature through which the propaganda is most effective. Right? Like, about the aspects of human nature that the pro propaganda plays on. Right?

Like, psychologically, sociologically, like, this aspect of it, in my opinion.

Right. So it it isn't, like, an all encompassing theory about the human condition. It is just about certain elements of the human nature. Right?

Yeah. Related to the topic he's trying to address. Right?

Okay. Okay. So that was one point or a couple of points rather from part one. Does anybody else have any other thoughts on this particular part that you, you know, found interesting, compelling?

Like, I really like the sentence on page nine. It was, like, the most most favorable moment to seize a man and influence him is when he's alone in the mess. This was, like, epic. Like, I'll I'll yeah. That's so true.

Like, they're trying to separate everyone, like, you know, taking away all of these group links. Right? Like, you know, religion is something that you can stand behind, right, as a group. Now let's eliminate that race. Now let's eliminate that.

You know, everything is trying to be eliminated, so you essentially don't have any, like, collective identity. Just this propaganda is essentially the only identity that connects you to the others. Right? So, essentially, like, you feel that you, you know, belong to something, but in the end, you feel also alone. Right?

Like, when he's alone in the man like, it's so good, this sentence. I think it's a lot it describes the situation of a lot of people. Right?

Well, okay. I I I want you to to give an example of that because I think in pop culture, we have plenty of of those instances. Like, when they speak to us as individuals, but, obviously, we are, you know, numbers.

Yeah. Exactly. Everybody's feeling he's special. Like, the the communication is directed to him, right, and to his experience and to his, like, development. Right?

Like, essentially, oh, man, this you know, really just for me. Like, I'm special. Right? But, essentially, you're among, like, 100,000 others who feel the same things. Right?

Like, you know

Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Well, I do have a couple of, notes or, you know, excerpts that I've highlighted as well.

I'd like to, you know, just read one and perhaps get your thoughts on it. So on page, I believe, 11, he says, it is a matter of reaching and encircling the whole man and all men. Okay. You know, human beings. I I don't want to be sexist.

Propaganda tries to surround man by all possible roots in the realm of feelings as well as ideas by playing on his will or on his needs through his conscious and his unconscious as assailing him in both his private and his public life. I, for some reason, found this to be quite intriguing because I believe we we can actually see many examples in in our modern society of of this. Would anybody like to comment? How do you feel about this particular quote? You don't have to wait for me to, you know, to call on you.

You just have to unmute and and speak. Okay? Okay. Jan, how do you feel about this? If you are with us, I I don't know.

Maybe you you have something else to do.

Okay. This is I'm I'm I'm just reading the page. I I missed the page number when you mentioned it. Mhmm. I mean, this the in in this because this is this is the objective.

Basically, he's he's providing the objectives of of propaganda. And so you would have to create the pre propaganda, which is, like, through education, through all these symbols that you are suddenly acquainted with. And then as you are older, you are faced with an onslaught of propaganda. Right? It has to be acting in in a concerted it's an it's a concerted effort in propaganda from from the movies you watch to the books you read to the newspapers you, you know, you read and and personalities you listen to.

So basic it's like a system systematic organized method of control. And then which is why I feel that that this is just as I'm reading it, I just feel that, like, whenever there is a different groups of people or mass of people getting together to interact or live together, this is an organic inevitable development in in managing society. You know? Mhmm. Yeah.

That's what I that that's what I think. I mean, that's what I've that's what I've gathered. And so you utilize every possible mechanism in in ensuring that you meet this objective. So because we live in the modern technological world, so you utilize all means of media mass media. And I think at the age of social media, it's kind of shaken the foundation of the fundamentals of propaganda.

You know? I think social media could kind of, you know, shakes that, you know, that that it it kind of, you know, snaps the masses out of the hold that propaganda has. You know? So I don't know I don't know what to make make of that. I mean, we we are seeing today the the the the the clutches.

I mean, like, I mean, as Shahid has talked about, he he's talking about how propaganda has failed, know, in the American context. The the the propagandists have basically failed too. Because he talks about also I'm I'm I'm maybe skipping the sections here because he talks about propaganda also, being in sync with reality, you know, in in your outcomes, in your objectives. So if you're out of touch with reality in in your propaganda, then it's just, okay. It's a failure, you know, and you've failed to read the room, to speak.

You've you you you have not gathered enough to understand your own society, your own community, or your youth, in this case in America where all the students, the elites, or the the children of the, you know, private capital owners are rising up against the very system that that brought them about. So it's like a, oops. You know, what now? You know, because, again, like, we we we keep hearing of people talking about, you know, we have our phones now. You can't you can't hold us captive or or hypnotize us with your propaganda.

You know? So in this in this light, it seems like a sinister program, you know, applying applied on people. And but propaganda can also be a a means of negotiation, a means of, you know, averting violence and averting conflict. It can also go in that direction. You know?

I think it just depends on on the person perpetuating the the propaganda, I guess. Mhmm. Yeah. I think that's it for for me for now. I'll add if I have anything else.

So go ahead.

On on that note, Selma, so I I I do want to maybe provide, you some additional thoughts on that because I you'll as you said, propaganda can be utilized for good purposes as well. I mean, I always go back to this example. We We always think of education, for example, or higher education as a very noble very noble human invention. Okay? But oftentimes, the most educated and intelligent, you know, men and women are monsters.

Right? So in the case of propaganda, I I think it can be the same, really. Like, you can reach, like, morally good outcomes if you utilize it well. The and the the problem I have with with the word propaganda is that I I don't I don't know how how all of you feel about this, is that it has negative connotations, and I believe wrongfully, it in the minds of people, it is about, you know, half truths, outright lies, you know, spin, etcetera, but it doesn't have to be necessarily. So, like, for example, in the case of of a society which wants to spread certain values, I mean, in in the case of modern society, you do need that apparatus to kind of instill those values in people, which, you know, like, you you can't have a a chaotic society.

There needs to be some level of cohesion. But I I I suppose when we talk about propaganda, we we always talk about the negative aspects of it rather than the positive. Yeah. Okay. Sorry.

I I went I I went on for too long there. Would anybody else like to to comment on this?

Well, I think well, think that I think that it depends on the ethics or the morals and principles that one has for himself. Because if you look at look at it as if I have, like if I think that I could pursue a certain goal and that I could make something look better than it actually is and that I'm that I'm convinced that this is the the right way to do it, I think that it is very personal and very individually individual if a person pursues that path. What I think is that that it me, personally, I wouldn't do it because or at least if if someone is trying to, make Islam, for example, look better, or to actually influence the minds of the people, I would say it will be okay. But still there is something there is an element where you make something look better than it is, as I just said. And I think this is this is my approach would be that I would say I'm very critical of that for myself.

Yes. That's about it.

Thank you. Thank you. So you're you're saying that, like, you personally on an individual level would be uncomfortable with that. But how do you feel about institutional propaganda? Because talks about that, really.

He doesn't talk about individual instances of it.

Well, I think the fight fight fight the enemy with the tools that you're being fought with. So I think as a as a general approach for governments, like Muslim governments or institutions, I would say that this would be it has to be done. So but me, personally, I wouldn't indulge in that. Yep.

Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. Would anybody else like to to chime in on this particular issue of, you know, propaganda and circling individuals, human beings in the society. Right?

Jen wanted to speak?

Yeah. I think Go ahead.

Yeah. Oh, Jan. Okay. Jan, go ahead. Sorry.

No. I was actually responding to something before that, so I should probably just cut out.

Go on. Go ahead. Go ahead.

No. I was I've just been thinking and I was thinking while I was reading it, I think perhaps in in in in the recent world, the most extreme example of propaganda was the pandemic where overnight people just became a redly I don't know what it was like in in other areas, but in I was in The UK at the time, and the same thing happened in South Africa. Everyone just fell into line, And it didn't happen quietly. If you

mentioned any doubt about what was going on and what came next with the with the the injections,

You were rounded on, viciously rounded on, totally attacked by the by the pack. It was very for for me, it was a very, very strange phenomenon. How they managed to get that much of a violent reaction. When did the propaganda start? How how did it go?

I'm yeah. I found it most interesting. And there's a guy called Matthijs Desmet, whom I'm sure most people have heard of by now, but he's a professor of technical psychology at Ghent University in Belgium. He's actually written a book called Mass Formation, which I haven't read. But I've heard a lot about it, and I've heard him being interviewed where he describes this this phenomenon.

And and, I mean, because I haven't read the book, I don't have an answer. I don't know whether he's got an answer or something. But I it for me, what's happened in the past three years or so has been a vivid example of of and almost immediately and total societal packing, for want of a better word.

I I think, Jen, as you were I mean, when you pointed out the the pandemic, you know, you, like, it it mobilized people to to you know, the prop it appears like the propaganda actually had us complying to the the the the parameters set by the the authorities on on on the on COVID I mean, on on the pandemic. Right? But but I think because he he mentions also in Jack Jacques Ilou, he talks about how propaganda in order for propaganda to be to be fully successful, you also need to physically assert. It has to be authoritarian to a certain extent. So because the authoritarian element was coupled with the the information, the propaganda on information, so so you were able to make people comply with the with the intended purpose of the pandemic.

But that means stay at home, you know, everything work from home and everything going online and not going out and all of that. But I think the the majority of the people didn't actually want to do that. I think a lot of people did not fall for that, the the the fear mongering that the the pandemic, intended. And and I think it's just through this coercion that they complied. The compliance was attained through coercion, and it's also part of the propaganda model.

I mean, that's what he talks about in the book, you know, that that that you you cannot have this direct incitement and indirect incitement in propaganda. And and the authoritarian one is also, you know, a reality.

Thanks,

On the issue of of, you know, pre propaganda, the the author makes some some very interesting claims, and I'll I'll just read them out to you to see if we can perhaps expand on this a little bit. So he says, seen from this angle, pre propaganda does not have a precise ideological objective. It has nothing to do with an opinion, an idea, a doctrine. It proceeds by psychological manipulations, by character modifications, by the creation of feelings or stereotypes useful when the time comes. It must be continuous, slow, imperceptible.

Man must be penetrating in order to shape such tendencies. He must be made to live in a certain psychological climate. So, Jan, we we talked about the the COVID pandemic. What myths or what preconceived notions were there when the pandemic started? And, I mean, how were they utilized by the authorities to to impose the, you know, the strict regulations and restrictions?

That's a good question. I'm not sure I know the answer. I've just been thinking about the the preplanning, the pre propaganda. Does that start in our schools where we dump children of the same ages together and we we get the we kind of coerce them into agreeing, otherwise,

they fall outside of the group? I think that that's that's one one one aspect. It's the pre that that's a, you know, very early onset of pre propaganda.

That that's that's what condition a response to authoritarianism.

I mean, to add on to to Nal's question about, you know, the the whole, you know, what what set the laid the ground. I think because initially, a lot of us were were not very acquainted with what this this this thing that was going around. So public health, you know, concern because we have we have had, you know, pandemics before, and so we have, like, like, a mental we're making the mental connection. Right? So if it's a if it's spreading, it's dangerous, and obviously, everybody values their life, so they would want to comply.

But then as time goes by, you you realize, you observe from data, from available information, from debates, from authorities in the medical field, and then you have reason. Right? So you understand that, okay. Maybe, this is not as bad as it seems because it I'm also seeing for myself that it's not as bad as it is put out to be. And I think it's it was quite glaring for a lot of us.

And the only reason why authorities were able to keep us in line is because there was this coercive element to it. Like, there are actual consequences if you fail to meet the the demands of the protocols. You know? I I I think that's what I wanted to say why this was even possible because of the coercive element of propaganda.

Perhaps, also, as far as medical is concerned, the the the flu jabs every year on the at the onset of winter, they've been around for a long time. That's normalized the idea that people can stick needles into you for respiratory or other, you know, problem. Yeah. I think I think something to do with some if it starts at school, then whole herd instinct is reinforced for up to decades before it's actually put in, as you say, through authoritarianism, through coercion, put into place.

Jan, are are you still there? I can't hear you.

Oh, sorry. No. I'm sorry. I thought I was finished.

Oh, okay. Okay. My apologies. My apologies.

No. No problem.

So okay. On on this topic of prepropaganda, we've seen how it can be, you know, utilized in the case of the COVID pandemic. Are there any other, like, notable examples you can think of? And, you know, this is a question for all of you, really.

Well, it is explained in the book of Edward Bernays in the beginning. They try to for example, they try to get a certain brand or, like, a certain T shirt or certain a clothing, and they tried to market it. And what they did was they they took celebrities, and the celebrities wore the those clothing brands. And all of a sudden, everybody was were were trying to buy it, they bought it, and it kind of boosted the sales. And that was like a technique because everybody wants to be or or at least a modern human being wants to be like a celebrity or they look up to celebrities.

And the way to use a lot utilize it was to actually make the celebrities wear the stuff that they wanted to sell. So and then in in modern times, it's it's the same thing. They just they just make it popular, and then everybody buys it. Yep.

Yeah. So that's, I think, one of those aspects of propaganda that is meant to make you take action, right, to to buy something. It it is more I think that is a later stage actually rather than I think pre propaganda happens before that actually. Right? But I I think this is good example really because people do tend to follow celebrities and influences and whatnot too.

Do as they do, really.

To be honest, I I just wanna add something. I really like this notion, like, where the essentially, the propaganda doesn't try to, like, enforce some values that have to be identical with everyone. Right? That is, like, somehow tailored in general but speaks to everyone individually. But what is necessary is essentially the action to be the same.

Right? Like, it doesn't matter why you do that action, but what is important is the result of the propaganda. Right? Like, they need this effectiveness of the propaganda. Like, they don't care if you you know?

For example, like, people you know, businesses believe in neoliberal politics because, yeah, the state will not intervene in my business. You know? I will have smaller tax if I can do evasion, whatever. Right? Like, everything is possible.

And then, you know, some, you know, homo see it as, oh, finally, I can be with the love of my life. Right? Someone else sees it as, you know, I don't know, I can have free education. Whatever. Right?

Like, the aspects that people find themselves within the realm of the propaganda might be different, but in the end, the action is that you go in the direction where they want you to. Right? Like, based on different motivations, you reach to the same result. Right? So this was a cool aspect.

I saw him, like, mention it somehow maybe indirectly, sometimes directly, but yeah.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. That's as long as we reach the end goal, the end result, it doesn't it doesn't matter how we get there. Right?

Guess that's

why everyone feels, like, special or, you know, the it's exactly that it's speaking to him to his situation. Right? Like, that's, like, a two way relationship.

I mean, the the in the in the section on continuity and the duration of propaganda, I mean, he points out that the success of propaganda is when every it it occupies every moment of the individual. Like, you know, it it's it's delivered as a relay system of mechanisms, you know, to keep up the continuum. That's that's, you know, that's an all encompassing, you know, intrusion into my life, you know, by an external hand. You know? It feels a little bit intrusive, but the but, again, he's presenting it like it is what it is.

I mean, if you just observe, it's a reality, but, you know, I can't help but feel that it's very, you know, encroaching.

Yeah. Exactly. That was the point at the beginning, like, I was saying that, you know, you suddenly after reading it, you feel that essentially we're all, you know, part of it or something. Like, there is this living organism living among us. Right?

As you said, it's intrusive and you feel like, oh, shit. Am I subject to this as well?

There's also another section in the book where he points out okay. Let's see. This is under the the the section organization of propaganda. Okay. So here's this is a point I've already raised.

No prog no propaganda is possible unless it rests on psychological influence that that is based on reality. So that's one. And if there's no physical influence by an organization to an individual, there's no propaganda. So, basically, there's no means of, I don't know, any coercive power, then there can be no successful propaganda. I don't know if Ilul is trying to say that it's one without the other.

You know? I'm not I'm not sure. It's, in the absence of if you're not able to get people to comply, then, therefore, you must apply coercion. That's what I think he's trying to get to. And then and then

I would imagine, Selma, that the the process of prepropaganda is crucial there because, like, if you dedicate so much time into propaganda into what's the word? Making people believe certain things, then you don't really need so much force anyway.

Yes. I I I I agree. That's true. Okay. Again, continuing on to that, to an example that he cites, you know, why, a Western criticism of the United Arab Republic, You know, it didn't like, when The United when inside, I think, Syria and Egypt I mean, when there was when there was a the the the formation of the United Arab Republic, there there there was a lot of western criticism, but it didn't move the the the Arab public.

But Abdel Nasser's critique of the Iraqi election as a fraud that that that's, like, falsified by imperialists apparently had an effect and and sparked some change. I mean, he's just citing this example. I have not had the time to look this up to understand in detail what actually took place. But he's trying to in in in trying to explain how, you know, you have to understand reality if you wanna, you know, apply propaganda. You you can't just,

you know remember. Like, it was related to, like, what you were saying. I think what he was trying to somehow distinguish because he usually, like he said, when people make studies, right, that it's essentially just the psychological aspect of it. Right? But he was trying to showcase that it's not just a psychological phenomenon.

Right? That it essentially it's not just an orthodoxy but an orthopraxy. Right? Or something that like that. Right?

I I'm not sure if I got it correctly, but I think that was an answer to what you were, like, asking directly.

Well, you know, there's another thing that I I'd I'd like to, you know, speak about, which is I I believe part of the pre propaganda process and, you know, he talks about because, you know, he's French. He talks about how for an individual to believe in propaganda, certain images have to be presented to them. And then he says, the spectator will be much more disposed to believe in the grandeur of France when he has seen a dozen films of French petroleum, railroads, or or jetliners. I mean, today, we see, let's say, in most American movies, we see, you know, the rich people in New York, Los Angeles, we see comfort, peaceful neighborhoods. Right?

I mean, that's one of those most common commonly depicted images of of The US and we see power, we see money, you know, probably Hollywood is is is the prime example of that. And, you know, and in France, obviously, we are flooded with images of the Eiffel Tower. Are there any examples that you you can think of that relates to this particular phenomenon of picking and choosing specifically, you know, good or grand images of a particular society to make people believe it is such?

Sorry, Nava. Can you can you rephrase the can you phrase the question again? I am I'm I don't think I caught the full question.

Are there any particular examples that you can think of in pop culture of a certain country using images, videos, you know, all sorts of different multimedia to portray their country in in a positive light despite the, you know, the different reality that country is in.

I can think in the negative light with respect to, like, Gulf countries. Right? It's, you know, kind of contemporary contemporaneous issue. So, yeah, like, every, you know, Muslim country, no women rights. No.

You know, this woman in black hijab and these images. Right? Or, you know, a dude with an AK. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

That's that's actually the opposite of what what I was going for, but it it works. It works. Absolutely. Selma, would would you like to to add something as well?

I mean, I I I know there's something in there in my head, but I I it's just blanks for me, like, a a country that's using propaganda. I mean, what comes off straight off is, like, this this slogan, Malaysia truly Asia, if you are familiar with the tagline. If you think about if you've if you've if you've seen the advertisements, like like, Malaysia's tourism board trying to promote Malaysia, if you looked if you looked at the advertisement, you would think that this is just some tropical, haven. You won't you won't see a sign of, of this being a Muslim country at all. And, I'm not saying this in a in in in as a criticism of Malaysia or of the tourism board, but it's just the utility of, propaganda in trying to promote to a population whose interest is just sun, see, fun, tropics, explore, have fun, you know, the the the all of these.

You know? So, you know but you come and then you come to the country and then you realize that, oh, the the the the the women are not scantily dressed. There there's there's and people are praying, and the and there are, you know, restrictions on on certain things and, you know I mean, like, you realize that, oh, this is actually a Muslim country. I don't get to do everything that I want or, you know, I can't just do the things that I do in in back home or whatever. You know?

So, again, I'm just I mean, I'm exaggerating in many points, but but the point here is the utility of propaganda. Yeah. I would even say this is you know, it's positive. I mean, it's not like they're being deceptive. It's not deceptive.

It's propaganda because you are you are you are pandering to a population for whom the core identity of the country is not the the motivation to come visit. Right? So you want tourists you want the tourist dollars to to boost your economy, so you push what what appeals to them. And so you use these symbols and taglines and so on. So this comes to mind when you when when you ask the question, but I'm sure there's other things that I can bring up.

But, obviously, it won't it will always come when I'm going to bed trying to sleep and my brain goes, you know, I should have said this. I should have said that. You know? Anyway, Halas, I'm done. I'm done.

Well, I I I hope you're not having regrets about these meetings. Right? I mean, this is just a casual discussion. And whenever you think of something, Summer, you can always type in the chat. Right?

So you don't have to be

Yeah. I didn't make I didn't mean to make sound so marous, but, you know, just, you know, I jest. I I I'm done. I I think that comes to mind when you when you ask the question that that that's the first prime example that comes to mind.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be fair, it it is part of the tourist package. Right?

So they sell a product, and I understand that. It's not really a big deal to me. Anybody else would like to maybe chime in on this, the usage of images or media to portray their country in a certain manner where, you know, we have a different reality? Jan, would you like to say something?